stark reminder really of the times we're living in. the candidates will sit in those chairs tonight, 12 feet of space, and two layers of plexiglass separating them and they won't shake hands in front of this small, masked audience. >> we have been told by the commission up residential debates that when we are talking to you, we can do so without a mask, and we are -- we are not addressing the camera we put our masks on, as we have, coming in here. >> and of course we have both been tested multiple times by fox and also by the cpd as part of this whole process and that goes for our crew here as well. >> the president's covid diagnosis will likely loom large over debate which vice present mike pence, the head of the coronavirus task force, will defend the advanced ration's response to the pandemic. >> senator kamala harris will make the case that she is ready to be commander in chief at a time when even the leader of the free world is vulnerable to a health crisis. >> we are hearing from the president of this university as the candidates had backstage to

hold their holding areas and get mic'd up and ready to go. let's get final update from correspondent jacqui heinrich. >> good evening, bret, as you mention about the candidates are here, they've done their walk-throughs in the next time we will see them will be on the stage in about 15 minutes. senator harris has a couple of guests with her, a full-time teacher who is also a veteran and also a state rep who works as a community organizer focusing on helping people affected by coronavirus. she is really going to focus on the virus tonight after president trump but all that video saying he was cured by regeneron and experimental drug not available to most americans, the dnc slammed pants, saying he peddled the president flies and the biden campaign also resumed their negative ads in part saying they want to combat those lies. vice president pence also had some guests with him. he brought the parents of a humanitarian aid worker who was killed by isis, to thank president trump for killing

al-baghdadi. also the widow of a police captain who died after a violent night of protests and a black business owner whose shop was burned down even though it was spray spray-painted with lack-owned. he is going to be pressing a law and order message. shows that these two have a favorability rating, penance is viewed the more negative than positive by a single point, harris is positive by 13, see how it changes, but they and martha. >> thank you. >> our all-star panel is here tonight. we've got chris wallace, brit hume, dana perino, juan williams, donna brazile, and karl rove. chris, let's start with you as we get ready to begin this first and only vice president of the bait of 2020. >> well, i have to tell you, martha, i'm a whole lot more relaxed right now than i it was exactly seven days ago. 5 minutes for the debate. i feel for susan page, the very able washington bureau chief for "usa today" was going to be

moderating this debate. but it's a tough chore when you know you've got tens of millions of people watching when you have to try to corral two candidates and i wish susan a more orderly debate then i got. as far as tonight is concerned, i think that mike pence has to score a clean victory. when you look at the week that president trump had last week with the debate, which according to the policy lost by a sizable majority to joe biden, and then getting the coronavirus and the outbreak in the white house, he's got to stop, penance has got to stop the political bleeding. you know how multiple polls that show biden leading trump by double digits nationally, by double digits in states like pennsylvania and florida and so i think pence has to win tonight, a tie isn't good enough. he's got to reverse the narrative of this race, which is all towards biden and not very favorable to president trump.

>> dana perino, your thoughts? >> well, i'm just wondering which debater comes tonight, when it comes to kamala harris. i'm thinking about the primary debates where she had so thoroughly researched and choreographed the attack against joe biden when it came to bossing that they had t-shirts ready to sell right the debate, at the other was when tulsi gabbard really took her down in terms of her record as a prosecutor and kamala harris looked stunned. she was almost like a deer in the headlights and that really hastens her exit from the race. i think that both of these candidates are worthy opponents. they are combatants and also i think that it could be a type tonight and at the contours of this race will not change too dramatically. >> brit, we understand that vice president pence wants to make an aggressive and emotional case for the white house's handling of this coronavirus. we all have seen quite clearly this week they are under a lot of pressure to turn that narrative around. >> well, there is a case to be made -- the problem that the

ticket has now is that the president hasn't made it very well and when he's had opportunity to defend his record on this he harps on the closing of the border to chinese coming in here, early in the game, something that he points out, senator biden or vice president biden opposed and criticized. but beyond that there's a long record of things they had administration did which i think are lost -- have been lost in the arguments that have been made in the idea that the president and his administration failed on this disease i think is pretty well set and it will take quite a performance by mike pence to try to undo that impression. he ought to know, he was the head of the task force. he ought to know everything they did and what we are going to find out is whether he can make the case -- and i don't think it's ever going to make that into a winning issue but he may be able to reduce the negative impression that people have with how they had administration has handled this issue and now that the president himself caught the disease in the white house, a bunch of other cases, it is

front and center. >> moderator susan page, washington bureau chief of "usa today" addressing the audience behind us before they get started here. carl there if an iconic moments and vice presidential debates before. traditionally they don't move the needle in the big race. is this one different? >> well, it could be simply because it's been one crazy election year and be, we have the two oldest man ever to run for president, whoever takes the oath of office next year will be the oldest man ever to do so, so yes, this could be more important than the normal debate. i will say this. going into tonight, i thought the harris camp did an odd job of raising expectations for both her performance and the nature of her performance. one of her advisors told the president that she has got to -- that he expected her to nail him to the wall and leave blood on the floor as she leaves the hall. i think that's a rather aggressive approach to tonight's debate, we will shift to see if

she actually carries that on. >> donna, she will be the first woman of color to take the stage in a vice presidential debate. obviously that carries a lot of weight with it. your thoughts as we watch are about to come out tonight? >> absolutely a historic night, the fourth time in american history that we had a woman on a major party ticket. tonight, she ran back a couple years ago, she ran for the people, so speak up for the 400,000 small businesses that have closed during this pandemic. the 12 million americans who lost their health insurance. tell the american people how the biden-harris administration will do a better job in handling this virus. the most important thing she needs to do tonight is to be herself and let's hope that it's a boring debate, a civil debate and yet an inspiring moment for the american people. >> donna, we don't have to go to boring. juan, your thoughts? >> boring is better.

>> well, i think this is going to be a cool breeze compared to the furnace we saw last week with the president earning the fire in the aggression and the domination. i think that this is going to be quite calm by contrast, not boring, but calm because i think it's going to be more substantive. both sides want to i think appeal to the american voter by saying i can tell you what's to come for the next four years. you may not have heard that from the other side, but i have a plan. and i think for vice president pence, the argument here is can he in fact articulate that plan? can he be more than the loyal supporter of president trump? can he be his own man? and he's got a political future to think of even beyond this moment. and for senator harris, i think it's her first time on a general election debate stage. she was a prosecutor, but i don't think being an aggressive prosecutorial type of approach here is going to benefit her.

i think she has to be more direct but you know how women get judged little differently and especially a woman of color. she's got to do it with some charm, some sense of humor about it, because vice president pence was a radio talk show host, he knows how to be smooth, so she's got to do that as well as make the point substantively about what she thinks is in store for the next four years if she wins, along with former vice president biden. >> thank you to all of you. we are just about a minute away from this getting started. i'm very hesitant to predict a calm evening, a boring evening, or anything because every notion of every element of this year has turned upside down on its head, both these people can be feisty at >> bret: and even though chris may shudder at the sight of the debate stage, it's a different format completely. nine segments, 10 minutes each,

two-minute answers at the front and it should be an interestin g night getting started in 13 seconds. complete coverage on the fox news channel of the vice presidential debate. the one and only of this cycle. ♪ ♪ >> martha: good evening, everybody. welcome to the first and only vice presidential debate of the 2020 campaign. we are live in salt lake city tonight. i am martha maccallum. >> bret: and i am bret baier. at the university of utah, the candidates are at their marks. we expect the moderator, susan page of "usa today" to get started in just a few moments. >> martha: typically the stakes of the vice presidential debate aren't that high but this is 2020 and everything is different. >> bret: it is 2020, a year

rocked by a global pandemic affecting americans come all the way up to the president of the united states. a crippling economy as a result of that and a debate that could shape the law of the land. >> martha: we are in the hush moment as the debate begins and it's nice to be on the side where you are watching this time around. your thoughts on what we are going to see you tonight? susan page getting ready to ask the first question, the first one out of the gate is always an important moment in these events. >> i think you're going to see two very different styles. as you mentioned, mike pence is a very smooth political performer. he was a radio talk show host for a time. he reminds me a little bit in his demeanor of ronald reagan. he will pause sometimes, do a little bit of a head dip. he will be good tonight. kamala harris, it will be more interesting, first time on the stage. we've seen her be very effecti effective. certainly, she cut up joe biden

in one of the presidential debates, talking about "that little girl is me." but she's got to temper it a little bit tonight. it will be very interesting to watch two very contrasting politicians, two very contrasting styles. >> bret: there are moments where a lot of these candidates make it happen. they essentially work like an attorney would in a courtroom. if he says this, she says this. but sometimes those of the iconic moment you get from these debates. >> they are, but there are not a lot of iconic moments played in the median form the sound bites that are played endlessly on the air afterwards that have shaped our race. i was on the debate stage and one of the questioners in the debate between dan quayle and roy benson back in 1988. dan quayle had a bad night, didn't make a particle of difference in the end. what kamala harris needs to do tonight is not some make some

big mistake. she and her partner are ahead, no big mistakes would probably be the best outcome for her. >> martha: dana, quickly, both sides want to project some gravitas and a little bit of professionalism that maybe we didn't see from both of these individuals on the first time around. >> i think you'll get it, and also there is a saying, if you want to be here you have to see here. tonight, young girls all across the country can see that you too, you could be on that stage one day. >> bret: this can make a difference. as we have seen the polls, joe biden and kamala harris have expanded their lead in some of the battleground states, but we are still 27 days from the selection and a lot can change. as we've seen in 2020, there are about a thousand news cycles last. let's turn it over to susan page. >> susan: good evening from the university of utah in salt lake city, welcome to the first and only vice presidential debate of 2020, sponsored by the nonpartisan commission on

presidential debates. i'm susan page of "usa today." it is my honor to moderate this debate, an important part of our democracy. in kingsbury hall tonight we have a small and socially distant audience, and we've taken extra precautions during this pandemic. among other things, everyone in the audience is required to wear a face mask, and the candidates will be seated 12 feet apart. the audience is enthusiastic about their candidates, but they've agreed to express that enthusiasm only twice. at the end of the debate and now, when i introduce the candidates. please welcome california senator kamala harris and vice president mike pence. [cheers and applause]

>> vice president pence: thank you. >> susan: senator harris and vice president pence, thank you for being here. we are meeting as president trump and the first lady continued to undergo treatment in washington after testing positive for covid-19. we sent our thoughts and prayers to them for their rapid and complete recovery and the recovery of everyone afflicted by the coronavirus. at the campaigns on the commission of presidential debates have agreed to the ground rules tonight. i am here to enforce them on behalf of the millions of americans who are watching. one note, no one in either campaign or at the commission or anywhere else has been told in advance what topics i will raise or what questions i will ask. this 90-minute debate will be divided into nine segments of about 10 minutes each. i will begin a segment by posing a question to each of you.

sometimes the same question, sometimes a different question on the same topic. you will then have 2 minutes to answer without interruption by me or the other candidate. then we will take 6 minutes or so to discuss the issue. at that point, although there will always be more to say, we'll move onto to the next topic. we want a debate that is lively, but americans also deserve a discussion that is civil. these are tumultuous times but we can and will have a respectful exchange about the big issues facing our nation. let's begin with the ongoing pandemic that has cost our country so much. senator harris, the coronavirus is not under control. over the past week, john hopkins reports that 39 states have had more covid cases over the last seven days then the week before. nine states have set new records. even if a vaccine is set to

soon, the next administration will face hard choices. what will a biden administration in january and february that a trump administration won't do? will you impose new lockdowns for businesses, schools and hot spots? a federal mandate to wear masks? you have 2 minutes to respond without interruption. >> senator harris: thank you, susan. the american people have witnessed what is the greatest failure of any presidential administration in the history of our country. and here are the facts, 210,000 dead people in our country in just the last several months. over 7 million people who have contracted this disease. one in five businesses closed. we are looking at front-line workers who have been treated like sacrificial workers. we are looking at over 30 million people who, in the last several months, had to file

for unemployment. and here's the thing, on januart and the president were informed about the nature of this pandemic. they were informed that it's lethal in consequence, that it's airborne, that it will affect young people, and that it will be contracted because it is airborne. and they knew what was happening and they didn't tell you. can you imagine if you knew on january 28th, as opposed to march 13th, what they knew, what you might've done to prepare? they knew and they covered it up. the president said it was a hoax. they minimized the seriousness of it. the president said, you are on one side of his ledger if you wear a mask, you are on the other side of his ledger if you don't. and in spite of all of that, today, they still don't have a plan. they still don't have a plan. well, joe biden does, and our

plan is about what we need to do around a national strategy, for contact tracing, for testing, for administration of the vaccine and making sure that it will be free for all. that is the plan that joe biden has and that i have, knowing that we have to get a hold of what has been going on, and we need to save our country, and joe biden is the best leader to do that, and frankly this administration has forfeited their right to reelection based on this. >> susan: thank you, senator harris. vice president pence, more than 210,000 americans have died of covid-19 since february. the u.s. death toll as a percentage of our population is higher than that of almost every other wealthy nation on earth. for instance, our death rate is 2.5 times canada next door. you had the administration's coronavirus task force. why is the u.s. death toll as a percentage of our population higher than that of almost every other wealthy country?

and you have 2 minutes to respond without interruption. >> vice president pence: susan, thank you, and i want to thank the commission and the university of utah for hosting this event. senator harris, it's a privilege to be on this stage with you. our nation has gone through a very challenging time this year, but i want the american people to know that from the very first day, president donald trump has put the health of america first. before there were more than five cases in the united states, all people who had returned from china, president donald trump did what no other american president had ever done, and that was he suspended all travel from china, the second-largest economy in in the world. now, senator, joe biden opposed that decision. he said it was xenophobic and hysterical. but i can tell you, having led the coronavirus task force, that that decision alone by president trump bought us in valuable time

to stand up the greatest national mobilization since world war ii. and i believe it saved hundreds of thousands of american lives. because with that time, we were able to reinvent testing. more than 150 million tests have been done to date. we were able to see to the delivery of billions of supplies so our doctors and nurses had the resources and support they needed. and we began, really before the month of february, started to develop a vaccine and develop medicines and therapeutics that have been saving lives all along the way. and under president trump's leadership, operation warp speed will have literally tens of millions of doses of vaccines before the end of this year. the reality is when you look at the biden plan it reads an awful lot like what president trump and i and our task force have been doing every step of the way, and quite frankly, when i look at their plan that talks about advancing testing, creating new ppe, developing a vaccine, it looks a little bit like plagiarism, which is something joe biden knows a

little bit about. and i think the american people know that this is a president who has put the health of america first and the american people, i believe with my heart -- >> susan: thank you. >> vice president pence: can be proud of the sacrifices they made to save american lives. >> susan: senator harris, would you like to respond? >> senator harris: absolutely. whatever the vice president is claiming the administration has done, clearly it hasn't worked. when you are looking at over 210,000 dead bodies in our country, american lives that have been lost, families that are grieving that loss. and you know, the vice president is the head of the task force and new on january 28th how serious this was, and thanks to bob woodward we knew that they learned about it, and when that was exposed, the vice president said when asked, why didn't y'all tell anybody, he said because the president wanted people to remain calm.

well, let's -- no, susan, this is important. mr. vice president, i'm speaking. i am speaking. >> susan: 15 more seconds and then we will give the vice president -- >> senator harris: i want to ask the american people, how, were you when you were panicked about where to get you next roll of toilet paper? how calm were you when your kids were sent home from school and you didn't know when they would go back? >> susan: thank you. >> senator harrislet's give mr.a chance to respond. >> vice president pence: there's not a day gone by that i haven't thought about every american family that's lost a loved one and i want you all to know that you will always be in our hearts and in our prayers. but when you say what the american people have done over these last eight months hasn't worked, that's a great disservice to the sacrifices the american people have made -- the reality, if i may finish, senator, the reality is, dr. dr. fauci said everything he told the president and the

oval office, the president told the american people. president trump, i will tell you, has boundless confidence in the american people and he always spoke with confidence we will get through this together. but when you say it hasn't worked, what dr. fauci and dr. birx and medical experts came to us within the week of march, they said if the president didn't take the unprecedented step of shutting down roughly half of the american economy, that we could lose 2.2 million americans. that's the reality. >> susan: thank you, mr. vice president. >> vice president pence: they also said if we did everything right we could still lose more than 200,000 americans. one life lost is too many, susan, but the american people, i believe, deserve credit for the sacrifices that they have made putting the health of their family and their neighbors first. our doctors, nurses, first responders -- >> susan: thank you, mr. vice president. vice president pence, you were in the front row at a rose garden event 11 days ago that seems to be a super-spreader

event for senior officials. no social distancing, few masks, and now a cluster of coronavirus cases among those who were there. how can you expect americans to follow the administration's safety guidelines to protect themselves from covid when you at the white house have not been doing so? >> vice president pence: the american people have demonstrated over the last eight months that when given the facts, they are willing to put the health of their families and their neighbors and people they don't even know first. president trump and i have great confidence in the american people and their ability to take that information and put it into practice. in the height of the epidemic, when we were losing a heartbreaking number, 205 american today, we searched resources in new jersey, new york, detroit, we told the american people what needed to be done and the american people made sacrifices. when the outbreak in the

sun belt happened, again, americans stepped forward. but the reality is the work of the president of the united states goes on. a vacancy on the supreme court of the united states has come upon us and the president introduced judge amy coney barrett. >> susan: thank you, mr. vice president. >> vice president pence: if i may say, the rose garden event, there's been a great deal of speculation about it. my wife and i were there and were honored to be there. many people at that event were actually tested for coronavirus, and it was an outdoor event, which all of our scientists regularly, routinely advised. the difference here is president trump and i trust the american people to make choices in the best interest of their health. joe biden and kamala harris consistently talk about mandates, and not just mandates with the coronavirus, but a government takeover of health care -- >> susan: thank you. >> vice president pence: green new deal, all government controlled. we are about freedom and respecting the freedom of the american people. >> senator harris: let's talk about the freedom of the

american people. he respect the american people when you tell them the truth, when you have the courage to be a leader speaking of those things that you may not want people to hear, but they need to hear to protect themselves. but this administration stood on information that if you had as a parent, if you had as a worker knowing you didn't have enough money saved up and now you're standing in the food line because of the ineptitude of an administration that was unwilling to speak the truth to the american people. so let's talk about caring about the american people. the american people have had to sacrifice far too much because of the incompetence of this administration. it is asking too much of the people. it is asking too much of the people. they would not be equipped with the information that they need to help themselves, to protect their parents and their children. >> susan: senator harris, i'm sorry -- >> senator harris: it's fine, i am kamala.

>> susan: you are senator harris to me. dr. fauci and experts say many people who are vaccinated will be vaccinated by now half of americans say they will not take a vaccine if it was released n now. if the trump a administration and releases a vaccine before or after the election, should americans take it and would you take it? >> senator harris: if the public health professionals, if dr. fauci, if the doctors tell us to take it i will be the first in line to take it, absolutely. but of donald trump tells us to take it, i'm not taking it. >> susan: vice president pence, there have been a lot of repercussions from this pandemic. in recent days, the president's diagnosis of covid-19 has underscored the importance of the job you hold and that you are seeking. that is our second topic tonight, the role of the vice president. one of you will make history on january 20th. you will be the vice president to the oldest president the united states has ever had. donald trump will be 74 years old on inauguration day, joe biden will be 78 years old.

that already has raised concerns amongst some voters, concerns that have been sharpened by president trump's hospitalization in recent days. vice president pence, have you had a conversation or reached an agreement with president trump about safeguards or procedures when it comes to the issue of presidential disability? and if not, do you think you should? you have 2 minutes without interruption. >> vice president pence: susan, thank you. although, i would like to go back -- >> susan: i think we need to move on -- >> vice president pence: thank you, but i would like to go back because the reality is we are going to have a vaccine, senator, in record time. in unheard of time. in less than a year. we have five companies in phase three clinical trials, and we are right now using tens of millions of doses. so, the fact that you continue to undermine public confidence in a vaccine, if a vaccine emerges during the trump

administration i think is unconscionable. senator, i just ask you, stop playing politics with people's lives. the reality is that we will have a vaccine, we believe, before the end of this year, and it will have the capacity to save countless american lives, and your continuous undermining of confidence in a vaccine is just unacceptable. and let me also say, the reality is when you talk about failure in this administration, we actually do know what failure looks like in a pandemic. it was 2009, the swine flu arrived in the united states. thankfully, it ended up not being as lethal as the coronavirus, but before the end of the year, when joe biden was vice president of the united states, not 7.5 million people contracted the swine flu. 60 million americans contracted the swine flu.

if the swine flu had been as lethal as the coronavirus, and 2009 when joe biden was vice president, we would have lost 2 million american lives. his own chief of staff would say last year that it was pure luck that they did "everything possible wrong." and we learned from that. they left the strategic national stockpile empty. they left an empty and hollow plan -- >> susan: thank you, mr. vice president. >> vice president pence: the american people can be proud of what we have done, and senator -- >> susan: thank you. >> vice president pence: stop undermining confidence in a vaccine. >> susan: let me ask you the same question i asked vice president pence, which is have you had a conversation or reached an agreement with vice president biden about safeguards or procedures when it comes to the issue of presidential disability, and if not, and if you win the election next month, do you think you should? you have 2 minutes uninterrupt

uninterrupted. >> senator harris: so let me tell you, first of all, the day i got the call from joe biden, it was actually a zoom call, asking me to serve with him on his ticket was probably one of the most memorable days of my life. i thought about my mother, who came to the united states at the age of 19, gave birth to me at the age of 25 at the hospital oklahoma, california , and the fact that i am sitting here right here would make her . joe and i were saved in a very similar way. we were raised with values that are about hard work, about the value and the dignity of public service, and about the importance of fighting for the dignity of all people and i think joe asked me to serve with him because i have a career that included being elected the first woman, district attorney of

san francisco, where i created models of innovation for law enforcement in terms of reform of the criminal justice system. i was elected the first woman of color and black women to be elected attorney general of the state of california, where i ran the second largest department of justice in the united states, second only to the united states department of justice. and there i took on everything from transnational criminal organizations to the big banks that were taking advantage of home owners, to for-profit colleges that were taking advantage of veterans. now i serve in the united states senate as only the second black woman ever elected to the united states senate. i serve on the senate intelligence committee where i've been a regular receipt of classified information about threats to our nation and hot spots around the world. i have traveled the world, i have met with our soldiers in war zones, and i think joe has asked me to serve with him because he knows that we share a purpose, which is about lifting up the american people. and after the four years that we

have seen of donald trump unifying our country around our common values and principles. >> susan: thank you, senator harris. neither president trump or vice president biden has released a sort of detailed health information that has become the modern norm until the 2016 election. and in recent days, president trump's doctors have given misleading answers or refused to answer basic questions about his health. and my question to each of you in turn is, is this information voters deserve to know? vice president pans, would you like to go first? >> vice president pence: susan, thank you. let me say on behalf of the president and the first lady how moved we have all been by the outpouring of prayers and concern for the president, and i do believe it's emblematic of their prayers and the concerns that have ushered forth for every american impacted by the coronavirus. but the care of the

president received at walter reed hospital by white house doctors was exceptional and the transparency they practiced all along the way will continue. the american people have the right to know about the health and well-being of their president, and we'll continue to do that. but i'm just extremely grateful and was more than a little moved by the broad and bipartisan support. and senator, i want to thank you and joe biden for your expressions of genuine concern. and i also want to congratulate you as i did on that phone call on the historic nation of your nomination. >> senator harris: thank you. >> vice president pence: i never expected to be on this stage four years ago, so i know the feeling. but the reality is we've got an election for the american people in the midst of this challenging year, and the stakes have never been higher -- >> susan: thank you. i want to give senator harris a chance to respond to the same question i asked, which is, do voters have the right to know more detailed health information

about presidential candidates, and especially about a president, especially when they are facing some kind of challenge? >> senator harris: absolutely, and that is why joe biden has been incredibly transparent, and certainly by contrast, the president has not appeared both in terms of health records, but also let's look at taxes. we now know because of great investigative journalism that donald trump paid $750 in taxes. when i first heard about it, i literally said, you mean $750,000? and it was like no, $750. we now know donald trump owes and is in debt for $400 million. and just so everyone is clear, when we say in debt, it means you owe money to somebody. and it would be really good to know who the president of the united states, the commander in chief owes money to, because the american people have a right to know what is influencing the

president's decisions. and is he making those decisions on the best interest of the american people, of you? or self-interest? susan, i'm glad you asked about transparency because it has to be across-the-board. joe has been incredibly transparent over many, many years. the one thing we all know about joe, he puts it all out there. he is honest, he is forthright. but donald trump on the other hand, has been about covering up everything. >> susan: thank you, senator harris. i want to give you a chance to respond, vice president. >> vice president pence: i respect the fact that joe biden spent 47 years in public life. i respect your public service as well. >> senator harris: thank you. >> vice president pence: the american people who have a president who is a businessman, job creator, who has paid tens of millions of dollars in taxes. payroll taxes, property taxes. he's created tens of thousands of american jobs. the president said those public reports are not accurate, and

the president has also released literally stacks of financial disclosures the american people can review, just as the law allows. but the distinction here is that joe biden, 47 years in public service, compared to president donald trump, who brought all of that experience four years ago and turned this economy around by cutting taxes, rolling back regulation -- >> susan: thank you, mr. vice president. thank you vice president. >> vice president pence: joe biden and kamala harris -- >> susan: that is a good segue into our third topic, which is about the economy. this has been another aspect of life for americans who have been so affected by this coronavirus. we have a jobs crisis brewing. on friday, we learned that the unemployment rate had declined to 7.9% in september, but that job growth had stalled and that was before the latest round of layoffs and furloughs in the airline industry, at disney and elsewhere. hundreds of thousands of discouraged workers have stopped

looking for work. 11 million jobs existed at the beginning of the year having been replaced. the hardest hit include latinos, black, and women. a plan to boost the economy and would pay for that by raising $4 trillion in taxes on wealthy individuals and corporations. some warned that could curb entrepreneurial ventures that fueled growth and create jobs. would raising taxes but the recovery at risk? and you have 2 minutes to answer uninterrupted. >> senator harris: thank you. on the answer of the economy, i think there couldn't be a more fundamental difference between donald trump and joe biden. joe biden believes that you measure the health and the strength of america's economy based on the health and the strength of the american worker and the american family. on the other hand, you have donald trump, who measures the strength of the economy based on how rich people are doing.

which is why he passed a tax bill benefiting the top 1% and the biggest corporations of america, leading to a $2 trillion deficit that the american people are going to have to pay for. on day one, joe biden will repeal that tax bill. he will get rid of it, and what he will do with the money is invest it in the american people. and through a plan that is about investing in infrastructure, something that donald trump said he would do. i remember hearing about some infrastructure week, i don't think it ever happened to be joe biden will do that. he will invest in infrastructure. it's about updating our roads and bridges but also investing in clean energy and renewable energy. joe is going to invest that money and what we need to do around innovation. there was a time when our country believed in science and invested in research and development so that we were an innovation leader on the globe. joe biden will mov use that mono invest in education.

for example, folks who want to go to a two year community college, it will be free. if you come from a family that makes less than $125,000, you will go to a public university for free. and across the board, we will make sure that if you have student loan date, it's cut by $10,000 that's how joe biden thinks about the economy, which is about investing in the people of the country as opposed to passing a tax bill which has the benefit of letting american corporations go offshore to do their business. >> susan: thank you, senator harris. vice president, your administration has been predicting a rapid and robust recovery, but the latest economic reports suggest that's not happening. should americans be braced for an economic comeback that is going to take not months about a year or more? you have 2 minutes to answer uninterrupted. >> vice president pence: when president trump and i took office, america had gone to the slowest economic recovery since the great depression.

they tried to tax our way to a growing economy. president trump cut taxes across the board. despite what senator harris says, the average american family of four had $2,000 in savings and taxes, and with the rise in wages that occurred most predominately for blue-collar, hardworking americans, the average household income for a family of four increased by $4,000 following president trump's tax cuts. america, you just heard senator harris tell you, on day one, joe biden is going to raise your taxes. it's really remarkable to think, susan. right after a time when we are going through a pandemic that 22 million jobs at the height, we've already added back 11.6 million jobs because we had a president who cut taxes, rolled back regulation, unleased american energy, fought for free and fair trade, and secured $4 trillion from the congress to give direct payments to families, save 50 million jobs

through the paycheck protection program. we literally have spared no expense to help the american people and the american worker through this. joe biden and kamala harris want to raise taxes, they want to bury our economy under a $2 trillion green new deal, which you were one of the original cosponsors of in the united states senate. they want to abolish fossil fuels and ban fracking, which would cost hundreds of thousands of american jobs all across the heartland. and joe biden wants to go back to the economic surrender to china that when we took office, half of our international trade deficit was with china alone. and joe biden wants to repeal all of the tariffs that president trump put into effect to fight for american jobs and american workers. joe biden says democracy is on the ballot. make no mistake about it, susan. the american economy, the american comeback is on the ballot with four more years of growth and opportunity -- >> susan: thank you. >> vice president pence: four more years of president donald trump, 2021 will be the biggest economic

year in the history of the country. >> susan: thank you, vice president pence. to senator harris? >> senator harris: i thought we saw enough of it in last week's debate but i thought this was supposed to be a debate on fact and truth. joe biden has been very clear. he will not raise taxes on anyone who makes less than $40,000 a year -- mr. vice president, i'm speaking. i am speaking. >> vice president pence: the importance is you said the truth. joe biden said twice in the debate last night he's going to repeal the trump tax cuts. that was tax cuts that gave the average working family $2,000 in a tax break every single year. >> senator harris: that is absolutely not true. >> vice president pence: is he only going to repeal part of the trump tax cuts? >> senator harris: if you don't mind letting me finish, we can have a conversation, okay? >> vice president pence: please. >> senator harris: joe biden will not raise taxes on anyone who makes less than $400,000 a year. he has been very clear about that. he will not and fracking, he has been very clear about that.

joe biden is the one who, during the great recession, was the one responsible for the recovery act that brought america back, and now, the trump-pence administration wants to take credit when they rode the coattail of the success for the economy they had at the beginning of the term. of course, now the economy is a complete disaster. by joe biden on the one hand that appeared on the other hand, you have donald trump, who has reigned over a recession that is being compared to the great depression. on the one hand, you have joe biden, who was responsible with president barack obama for the affordable care act, which brought health care to over 20 million americans and protected people with pre-existing conditions. and what it also did is it saved those families who otherwise were going bankrupt because of hospital bills they could not afford. on the other hand, you have donald trump, who was in court

right now trying to get rid of the affordable care act, which means that you will lose protections if you have pre-existing conditions, and this is very important, susan. >> susan: we need to get vice president -- >> senator harris: he interrupted me and i would like to just finish, please. if you have a pre-existing condition, heart disease, diabetes, breast cancer, they are coming for you. if you love someone who has a pre-existing condition, they are coming for you. if you are under the age of 26 on your parents coverage, they're coming for you. >> susan: senator harris, thank you. >> senator harris: you're welcome. >> vice president pence: i hope we have a chance to talk about health care because obamacare was a disaster. the american people remember it well. president trump and i have a plan to improve health care and to protect pre-existing conditions for every american. but look, senator harris, you are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts. you yourself said on multiple

occasions when you were running for president that you would ban fracking. joe biden looked a supporter in the eye and pointed and said "i guarantee, i guarantee that we will abolish fossil fuels." they have a $2 trillion version of the green new deal, that your newspaper, susan, "usa today" said really wasn't that different from the original green new deal. more taxes, more regulation, banning fracking, abolishing fossil fuels, crushing american energy, and economic surrender to china is a prescription for economic decline. president trump and i will keep america growing. the v-shaped recovery that is underway right now will continue with four more years of president donald trump. >> susan: thank you very much, vice president. once again, you have provided the perfect segue to a new topic, which is climate change. vice president pence, i would like to post the first question to you. this year, we have seen record-setting hurricanes in the

south. another one, hurricane delta, is now threatening the gulf. and record-setting wildfires in the west. do you believe as the scientific community has concluded, that man-made climate change has made wildfires bigger, hotter, and more deadly, and have made hurricanes wetter, slower, and more damaging? you have 2 minutes uninterrupt uninterrupted. >> vice president pence: thank you, susan. i'm very proud on our record on the environment and conservation. according to all of the best estimates, our air and land are cleaner than any time ever recorded, and our water is among the cleanest in the world. and a while ago our president signed the outdoors act, the largest investment in our public lands and public parks in 100 years. so president trump has made a commitment to con conservation f the environment. with regards to climate change, the climate is changing. the issue is, what the cause, and what do we do about it?

president trump has made it clear we are going to continue to listen to the science. now joe biden and kamala harris would put us back in the paris climate accord. they would impose the green new deal, which would crush american energy. it would increase the energy costs of american families in their homes, and literally would crush american jobs. president trump and i believe that the progress that we have made in a cleaner environment has been happening precisely because we have a strong free market economy. you know, what's remarkable is the united states has reduced co2 more than the countries that are still in the paris climate accord, but we've done it through innovation. and we've done it through natural gas and fracking, which, senator, the american people can go look at the record. i know joe biden says otherwise now, as you do, but the both of you repeatedly committed to abolishing fossil fuels and

banning of fracking. and so by creating a kind of american innovation, we are actually steering towards a stronger and better environment. with regard to wildfires, president trump and i believe that forest management has to be front and center, and even governor gavin newsom from your state has agreed we've got to work on forest management. with regard to hurricanes, the national oceanic administration tells us that actually, as difficult as they are -- >> susan: thank you. >> vice president pence: there are no more hurricanes today than there were 100 years ago. >> susan: thank you. >> vice president pence: but many of the climate alarmist use hurricanes and wildfires to build the goods of a green new deal and president trump and i are going to always put american jobs and american workers first. >> susan: senator harris, as the vice president mentioned, you cosponsored the green new deal in congress. but vice president biden said in last week's debate that he does not support the green new deal. but if you look at the biden biden-harris campaign website,

it describes the green new deal is a crucial framework. what exactly would be the stance of the biden-harris administration toward the green new deal? you have 2 minutes uninterrupted. >> senator harris: all right, first of all i will repeat, and the american people know that joe biden will not ban fracking. that is a fact. that is a fact. i will repeat the joe biden has been very clear that he thinks about growing jobs, which is why he will not increase taxes for anyone who makes less than $400,000 a year. joe biden's economic plan, a reputable wall street firm has said will create 7 million more jobs than donald trump's. and part of the jobs that will be created by joe biden are going to be about clean energy and renewable energy. because you see, joe understands that the west coast of our country is burning, including my

home state of california. joe sees what is happening on the gulf states, which are being battered by storms. joe has seen and talked with farmers in iowa, whose entire crops have been destroyed because of floods. and so joe believes, again, in science. i'll tell you something, i served when i first got to the senate on the committee that is responsible for the environment. you know this administration took the word "science" off the website? and then took the phrase "climate change" off the website? we have seen a pattern with this administration, which is they don't believe in science. and joe's plan is about saying we are going to deal with it but we are also going to create jobs. donald trump when asked about the wildfires in california and the question was, the science is telling us this, you know what donald trump said? "science doesn't know." so let's talk about who is prepared to lead our country over the course of the next four years on what is an existential

threat to us as human beings. joe is about a saying we are going to invest that and renewable energy, by the creation of millions of jobs, we will achieve net zero emissions by 2050, carbon neutral by 2035. joe has a plan. this has been a lot of talk from the trump administration and really it has been to go backward instead of forward. we will also reenter the climate agreement with pride. >> susan: senator harris just said that climate change is an existential threat. vice president pence, do believe that climate change poses an existential threat? >> vice president pence: as i've said, susan, the climate is changing. will follow the science. but once again, senator harris is denying the fact that they are going to raise taxes on every american. joe biden said twice in the debate last week that on day one he was going to repeal the trump tax cuts. of those tax cuts a deliberate thousand dollars in tax relief o the average family of four

across america. with regard to banning fracking, i just recommend that people look at the record. it you yourself said repeatedly that you would ban fracking. you were the first senate cosponsor of the green new deal. and while joe biden denied the green new deal, susan, thank you for pointing out the green new deal is on their campaign website and as "usa today" said, it's essentially the same plan as you cosponsored with aoc when she submitted it in the senate. and you just heard the senator say she's going to resubmit america to the paris climate accord. look, the american people have always cherished our environment. we will continue to cherish it. we've made great progress, reducing co2 emissions through american innovation and the development of natural gas and fracking. we don't need a $2 trillion green new deal that would impose all new mandates on american businesses and american families. >> susan: thank you. thank you -- >> vice president pence: joe biden wants to retrofit

4 million business buildings. it makes no sense, it will cost jobs. >> susan: thank you, vice president. >> vice president pence: he's going to put america first, but jobs for us and we are going to take care of the environment and follow the science. >> senator harris: on the issue of jobs, let's talk about that beer the vice president earlier referred to what he thinks is an accomplishment that the president's trade war with china. he lost that trade war. you lost it. what ended up happening is because of a so-called trade war with china, america lost 300,000 manufacturing jobs. farmers have experienced bankruptcy because of it. we are in a manufacturing recession because of it. and when we look at where this administration has been, there are estimates that by the end of the term of this administration, they will have lost more jobs than almost any other

presidential administration. and the american people know what i'm talking about. you know. i think about 20-year-olds. we have a 20-year-old. 20-something-year-old. who are coming out of high school and college right now and wondering, is there going to be a job for me? we are looking at people who are trying to figure out how they're going to pay rent by the end of the month. almost half of american renters are worried about whether they are going to be able to pay rent by the end of the month. this is where the economy is in america right now and it's because of the catastrophe and the failure of leadership of this administration. >> susan: thank you, senator harris. vice president pence, let me give you 15 seconds to respond because then i want to move on. >> vice president pence: i would love to respond. look, lost the trade war with china, joe biden never fought it. joe biden has been a cheerleader for communist china for the last several decades, and again, senator harris, you are entitled

to your opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts. joe biden was vice president, we lost 200,000 manufacturing jobs in president obama said they were never coming back. he said we needed a magic wand to bring them back. in her first three years after we cut taxes -- >> susan: thank you. >> vice president pence: unleashed american energy, this administration saw 500,000 jobs created and that's exactly the kind of growth we are going to continue to see as we bring our nation through -- >> susan: thank you, by its president. >> vice president pence: the green new deal, new mandates, paris climate accord, it's going to kill jobs this time just like it killed jobs at -- >> senator harris: i just need to respond quickly. >> susan: 15 seconds. >> senator harris: thank you. joe biden is responsible for saving america's auto industry, and you voted against it. so let's set the record straight. thank you. >> susan: i'd like to talk about china. we have as our next topic, we have no more complicated or consequential foreign relationship than the one with

china. it is a huge market for american agricultural goods. it's a potential partner when dealing with climate change in north korea, and in a video tonight, president trump again blamed it for the coronavirus, saying china will pay. vice president pence, how would you describe our fundamental relationship with china? competitors, adversaries, enemies? you have 2 minutes. >> vice president pence: thank you, susan. before i leave that, let me speak to voting records, if i can. everybody knows that nafta cost literally thousands of american factories to close. we saw automotive jobs go south of the border. president trump fought to renegotiate nafta, and the united states mexico canada agreement is now the law of the land. the american people deserve to know, senator kamala harris was one of only ten members of the senate to vote against the usmca. it was a huge win for american autoworkers. it was a huge win for american

farmers, especially dairy in the upper midwest. but senator, you said it didn't go far enough on climate change, that you put your radical environmental agenda ahead of american autoworkers and ahead of american jobs. the american people deserve to know that. it's probably why "newsweek" magazine said kamala harris was the most liberal member of the united states senator in 2019. more liberal than bernie sanders. more liberal than any of the others in the united states senate. with regard to china, susan, first and foremost, china is to blame for the coronavirus. and president trump is not happy about it. he's made that very clear. it made it clear again today. and china and the world health organization do not play straight with the american people. they do not let our personnel into china to get information on the coronavirus until the middle

of february. fortunately, president trump, in dealing with china from the outset of this administration, standing up to china that had been taking advantage of america for decades in the wake of joe biden's cheerleading for china, president trump made that decision before the end of january to suspend all travel from china. and again, the american people deserve to know, joe biden opposed president trump's decision to suspend all travel from china. he said it was hysterical. he said it was xenophobic. >> susan: thank you, vice president pence. your time is up. >> vice president pence: -- continue to stand strong. we want to improve the relationship that we are going to level the playing field and hold china accountable for what they did to america with the coronavirus. >> susan: thank you. senator harris, let me ask you the same question i asked the vice president. how would you describe our fundamental relationship with china? are we competitors, adversaries, enemies? you will have 2 minutes uninterrupted. >> senator harris: susan, the trump administration's

perspective and approach to china has resulted in a loss of american lives, american jobs, and america's standing. there is a weird obsession that president trump has had with getting rid of whatever accomplishment was achieved by president obama and vice president biden. for example, they created within the white house in office that basically was responsible for monitoring pandemics. they got rid of it. >> vice president pence: not true. >> senator harris: there was a team of disease experts that president obama and vice president biden dispatched to china to monitor what is now predictable and what might happen. they pulled them out. we are now looking at 210,000 americans who have lost their lives.

let's look at the job situation. we mentioned before, the trade deal. the trade war, they wanted to call it, with china. it resulted in the loss of over 300 manufacturing jobs, and a manufacturing recession. and the american consumer paid thousands of dollars more for goods because of that failed war, that they called it. and let's talk about -- pew, reputable research firm has done an analysis that shows that leaders of all of our formally allied countries have now decided that they hold in greater esteem and respect xi jinping, the head of the chinese communist party, then they do donald trump, the head of the united states, the commander in chief of the united states. this is where we are today, because of a failure of leadership by this administration. >> susan: senator harris, we've seen changes in the role

of the united states in terms of global leadership over the past for two years. of course, times do change, what's your definition? we've seen strains with china for as the vice president mentioned. we've seen the strands with our traditional allies, in nato and elsewhere. what is your definition of the role of american leadership in 2020? >> senator harris: you know, i love talking with joe about a lot of these issues. joe, i think he said it quite well. he said you know, foreign policy might sound complicated but really it's relationships. just think about it as relationships. so we know this in our personal-professional relationships, you've got to keep your word to your friends. you've got to be loyal to your friends. the people who have stood with you, got to stand with them. you've got to know who your adversaries are, and keep them in check. but what we have seen with donald trump is that he has betrayed our friends, and

embraced dictators around the world. let's take for example russia. so i serve on the intelligence committee of the united states senate. america's intelligence community told us russia interfered in the election of the president of the united states in 2016 and is planning on 2020. christopher wray, the director of the fbi, said the same. but donald trump, the commander in chief of the united states of america, prefers to take the word of vladimir putin over the word of the american intelligence community. you look at our friends at nato. he has walked away from agreements. look at the iran nuclear deal, which now has put us in a position where we are less safe because they are building up what might end up being a significant nuclear arsenal. we were in that deal, guys. we were in the iran nuclear deal

with friends, with allies around the country. and because of donald trump's unilateral approach to foreign policy, coupled with his isolationism, he pulled us out and has made america less safe. so susan, it's about relationships. and the thing that has always been part of the strength of our nation, in addition to our great military has been that we keep our word. but donald trump doesn't understand that, because he doesn't understand what it means to be honest. >> susan: thank you, thank you. thank you, senator harris. vice president pence, let me give you a chance to respond. >> vice president pence: president trump kept his word when we moved the american embassy to jerusalem, the capital of the state of israel. when joe biden was vice president, they promised to do that and they never did. we stood strong with our allies, but we've been demanding. nato is now contributing more to our common defense than ever before thanks to president trump's leadership. we've strengthened our alliances across the asia pacific. and we've stood strong against

those who would do us harm. when president trump came into office, isis had captured an area of the middle east the size of pennsylvania. but president trump unleashed the american military, and our armed forces destroyed the isis caliphate and took down their leader al baghdadi without one american casualty. al baghdadi was responsible for the deaths of thousands, but notably, our hearts are with the parents -- who are here with us in salt lake city. today, two of the isis killers who are responsible for her murder were brought to justice in the united states. he was killed on the battlefield along with the other beat up your the reality is when joe biden was vice president we had an opportunity to save

caitlin miller. it breaks my heart but it came to the white house, they said they knew where she was. they held her for 18 months, abused her mercilessly before they killed her, but when joe biden was vice president, they hesitated for a month and when armed forces finally went in, it was clear she had been moved two days earlier and her family says with heart, that broke the heart of every american, that if president donald trump had been president, they believe she would be alive today. we destroyed the isis caliphate, and talk about reentering the iran nuclear deal. the last administration transferred -- to the leading state sponsor of terrorism. >> susan: thank you, vice president pence. >> vice president pence: and when soleimani was traveling to baghdad to harm two americans, president donald trump took out, and america is safer, our allies

are safer, and the american people know president donald trump will never -- >> susan: enke, vice president. i would like to give senator harris a chance to respond but not at such great length because we have other topics we want to talk about. >> senator harris: first of all, to the mueller family, i know about your daughter's case, and i am so sorry. i am so sorry. what happened to her is awful. and it should have never happened. and i know joe feels the same way. and i know that president obama feels the same way. but you mentioned soleimani, let's start there. after the strike on soleimani, there was a counter strike on our troops in iraq, and they suffered serious brain injuries, and you know what donald trump dismissed them as? headaches.

and this is about a pattern of donald trump's, where he has referred to our men who are serving in our military as suckers and losers. a donald trump, who went to arlington cemetery and stood above the graves of our fallen heroes and said, what's in it for them? because of course, he only thinks about what's in it for him. let's take what he said about john mccain, a great american hero. and donald trump says, he doesn't deserve to be called a hero because he was a prisoner of war. take, and this is very important, when you want to talk about who is the current commander in chief and at what they care about and what they don't care about. public reporting that russia has bounties on the heads of

american soldiers, and you know what a bounty is? it's somebody puts a price on your head and they will pay it if you are killed. and donald trump had talked at least six times to vladimir putin and never brought up the subject. joe biden would never do that. joe biden would -- joe biden would hold russia to account for any threat to our nation's security or to our troops, who are sacrificing their lives for the sake of our democracy and our safety. >> susan: thank you, senator harris. this is such an important issue but we have other important issues as well. i want to make sure we have a chance -- >> vice president pence: i really have to respond that. >> susan: 15 seconds, because we are trying to -- >> vice president pence: look. >> susan: i'm sorry, mr. vice president, you've had more time than she has had so far. >> vice president pence: -- donald trump, regarding the men and women of our armed forces are absurd. >> susan: i'm sorry but -- >> vice president pence: my son-in-law is deployed in the

united states navy. i can assure all of you, the sons and daughters serving in our military, president donald trump not only respects but reveres all of those who served in our armed forces, and any suggestion otherwise is ridiculous. >> susan: thank you, vice president pence. vice president pence -- >> vice president pence: the american people deserve to kno know -- >> senator harris: you can't deny -- >> susan: your campaign agreed to the rules are for tonight's debate with a commission of presidential debate. i'm here to enforce them, which involves moving from one topic to another, giving you roughly equal time, to both of you, which is what i'm trying very hard to do. >> vice president pence: go ahead. >> susan: so i want to go ahead and move to the next topic, which is an important one is the last topic was, and that is the supreme court. on monday, the senate judiciary committee was scheduled to open hearings on amy coney barrett's nomination to the supreme court. senator harris, you will be there as a member of the committee. her confirmation would cement

the court's conservative majority and make it likely open to more abortion restrictions, even to overturning the landmark roe v. wade ruling. access to abortion would then be up to the states. vice president pence, you are the former governor of indiana. if roe v. wade is overturned, what would you want indiana to do? would you want your home state to ban all abortion? you have 2 minutes uninterrupted. >> vice president pence: thank you for the question but i will use a little bit of my time to respond to that very important issue before. the american people deserve to know, soleimani, the irani in general, was responsible for the death of hundreds of american service members. when the opportunity came, we saw him headed to baghdad to kill more americans. president trump didn't hesitate and qasem soleimani is gone. but you should know, joe biden

and senator harris criticized the decision to take out qasem soleimani. it is inexplicable but with regard to joe biden, it is explainable. joe biden actually opposed to the raid against osama bin laden. it is absolutely essential that we have a commander in chief who will not hesitate to act to protect american lives and to protect american service members, and that is what you have in president donald trump. now with regard to the supreme court of the united states, let me say president trump and i could not be more enthusiastic about the opportunity to see judge amy coney barrett become just as amy coney barrett. she is a brilliant woman and will bring a lifetime of experience and a sizable american family to the supreme court of the united states. and our hope is in the hearing next week, unlike justice kavanaugh received with treatment from you and others, we hope she gets a fair hearing. and we particularly hope we don't see the kind of attacks on her christian faith that we saw before. i mean, the democratic chairman

of the judiciary committee before, when judge barrett was being confirmed for the court of appeals, expressed concern the dogma of her faith lived loudly in her. dick durbin of illinois said it was a concern. senator, i know one of our judicial nominees, you actually attacked because they were a member of the catholic knights of columbus just because the knights of columbus holds pro-life views -- >> susan: thank you, vice president pence. your time is up. >> vice president pence: my hope is when the hearing takes place, that judge amy coney barrett will be respected -- >> susan: thank you, vice president pence. thank you. senator harris, you are the senator and former attorney general of california. if roe v. wade is overturned, what would you want california to do? would you want your home state to enact no restrictions on abortion? you have 2 minutes

uninterrupted. >> senator harris: thank you, susan. first of all, joe biden and i are both people of faith and it's insulting to suggest that we would knock anyone for their faith. and in fact, joe, if elected would be only the second practicing catholic as president of the united states. on the issue of this nomination, joe and i are very clear, as are the majority of the american people. we are 27 days before the decision about who will be the next president of the united states. and before, when this conversation has come up, it's been about election year or election time, we are literally in an election. over 4 million people have voted. people are in the process of voting right now. and so joe has been very clear, as the american people are, let the american people fill that seat in the white house, and then we will fill that seat on

the united states supreme court. enter your point, susan, the issue for a lesson before us couldn't be more serious. there's the issue of choice, and i will always fight for a woman's right to make a decision about her body. it should be her decision and not that of donald trump in the vice president, michael pence. but let's look at what also sits before the court, it's the affordable care act. literally in the midst of a public health pandemic, one over 210,000 people have died and 7 million people probably have what will be in the future a pre-existing condition because you contracted the virus, donald trump is in court right now trying to get rid of the affordable care act. and i said it before and it bears repeating, this means that there will be no more protection, if they win, for people with pre-existing conditions. this means that over 20 million people will lose your coverage. it means that if you're under the age of 26, you can't stay on

your parents' coverage anymore. and here's the thing, the contrast couldn't be more clear. they are trying to get rid of the affordable care act, joe biden is saying let's expand coverage, let's give you a choice of a public option or private coverage. let's bring down premiums, let's lower medicare eligibility to 60. >> susan: thank you, senator. >> senator harris: that is true leadership. >> susan: you mentioned earlier, vice president pence, that the president was committed to maintaining protections for people with pre-existing conditions. but you do have this court case that you are supporting, your administration is supporting, that would strike down the affordable care act. the president says, president trump says he is going to protect people with pre-existing conditions but he has not explained how he would do that. and that was one of the toughest nuts to crack, when they were passing the affordable care act. so tell us specifically, how would your administration protect americans with pre-existing conditions to have access to affordable insurance, if the affordable care act is

struck down? >> vice president pence: thank you, susan, but let me just say, addressing your very first question, i couldn't be more proud to serve as vice president to a president who stands without apology for the sanctity of human life. i am pro-life, i don't apologize for it. and this is another one of those cases where there is such a dramatic contrast. joe biden and kamala harris support taxpayer funding of abortion all the way up to the moment of birth. late term abortion. they want to increase funding to planned parenthood of america. for our part, i would never presume how judge amy coney barrett would rule on the supreme court of the united states, but will continue to stand strong for the right to life. when you speak about the supreme court, though, i think the american people really deserve an answer, senator harris. are you and joe biden going to pack the court if judge amy coney barrett's conference? there have been 29 vacancies on

the supreme court during presidential election years from george washington to barack obama. presidents have nominated in all 29 cases. but your party is actually openly advocating adding seats to the supreme court, which has had nine seats for 150 years, if you don't get your way. this is a classic case of if you can't win by the rules, you're going to change the rules. you refuse to answer the question. joe biden has refused to answer the question, so i think the american people would really like to know, if judge amy coney barrett is confirmed to the supreme court of the united states, are you and joe biden, if somehow you one make this election, going to pack the supreme court to get your way? >> senator harris: i'm so glad we went through a little history lesson. let's do that a little more. in 1864 -- >> vice president pence: i'd like you to answer the question. >> senator harris: mr. vice president, i am speaking. i am speaking. in 1864, one of the political heroes, certainly of the president, i assume you also,

mr. vice president, is abraham lincoln. abraham lincoln was up for reelection, and it was 27 days before the election. and the seat became open on the united states supreme court. abraham lincoln's party was in charge not only of the white house, but the senate. but honest abe said, it's not the right thing to do. the american people deserve to make the decision about who will be the next president of the united states, and then that person can select who will serve for a lifetime on the highest court of our land. and so joe and i are very clear. the american people are voting right now, and it should be there decision about who will serve on this most important body for lifetime. >> susan: thank you, senator harris. >> vice president pence: susan, people are voting right now, they would like to know if you and joe biden are going to pack the supreme court if you don't get your way in this

nomination. >> senator harris: let's talk about packing, come on -- >> vice president pence: you give a nonanswer, joe biden gave a nonanswer -- >> senator harris: i'm trying to answer you now. >> vice president pence: if you haven't figured it out yet, they are going to pack the supreme court if they somehow win this election. men and women, if you cherish our supreme court, if you cherish the separation of powers, you need to reject the biden-harris ticket come november 3rd, reelect president donald trump who will stand by the separation of powers in a nine seats supreme court. >> senator harris: yeah, let's talk about packing the court then. >> vice president pence: please. >> senator harris: i am about to. so, the trump-p administration, i sit on the administration, as you mention mentioned, and i have witnessed the district courts of appeal, people who are purely ideological, people who have been reviewed by legal

professional organizations and found to have been not competent or substandard. and do you know that of the 50 people who president trump appointed to the court of appeals for lifetime appointments, not one is black? this is what they've been doing. you want to talk about packing the court? let's have that discussion. >> susan: thank you, senator. let's talk about the issue of racial justice. >> vice president pence: i just want the record to reflect she never answered the question. the american people can excavate, joe biden will answer the question but i think the american people know the answer. >> susan: thank you, vice president. in march, breonna taylor, an emergency room technician was shot and killed after police investigating a narcotics investigation broke into her apartment. the police say they identified himself. breonna taylor's boyfriends as he didn't hear them do that. he fired a shot which wounded an

officer. the officers fired more than 20 rounds into the apartment. they say they were acting in self-defense. none of them have been indicted in connection with her death. senator harris, in the case of breonna taylor, was justice done? you have 2 minutes. >> senator harris: i don't believe so, and i've talked with breonna taylor's mother and her family, and her family deserves justice. she was a beautiful young woman. she had as her life goal to become a nurse and she wanted to become an emt to first learn what's going on out on the street so she could then become a nurse and save lives, and her life was taken, unjustifiably, and tragically, and violently. and it brings me to the 8 minutes and 46 seconds that america witnessed, during which an american man was tortured and killed under the knee of an

armed, uniformed police officer. and people around our country of every race, of every age, of every gender, perfect strangers to each other, marched soldier tshoulderto shoulder, arm in ar, fighting for us to finally achieve that ideal of equal justice under law. and i was a part of those peaceful protests. and i believe strongly that first of all, we are never going to condone violence, but we always must fight for the values that we hold dear, including the fight to achieve our ideals. and that is why joe biden and i have said on the subject -- look, and i'm a former career prosecutor. i know what i'm talking about. bad cops are bad for good cops. we need reform of our policing in america and our criminal justice system, which is why joe

and i will immediately band choke holds. george floyd would be alive if we did that. we will require national registry for police officers who break the law. on the issue of criminal justice reform, we will get rid of private prisons and cash bail, and we will decriminalize marijuana, and we will expunge the records of those who have been convicted of marijuana. >> susan: thank you, senator harris. >> senator harris: on a tragic, tragic issue of unarmed black people in america. >> susan: thank you, senator harris. vice president pence, let me pose the same question to you. in the case of breonna taylor, was justice done? you have 2 minutes uninterrupt uninterrupted. >> vice president pence: our heart breaks for the loss of any innocent american life in the family of breonna taylor has our sympathies. but i trust our justice system, a grand jury that refused the

evidence in it really is remarkable is a former prosecutor, you would assume that in a panel, grand jury looking at all the evidence got it wrong. but you are entitled to your opinion, senator. i think, with regard to george floyd, there is no excuse for what happened to george floyd, and justice will be served. but there's too no excuse for the rioting and looting that followed. it really is astonishing. flora westbrook is with us tonight in salt lake city. a few weeks ago i stood at what used to be her salon. it was burned to the ground by rioters and looters. and flora is still trying to put her life back together. and i must tell you, this presumption that you hear consistently from joe biden and kamala harris that america is

systemically racist and as joe biden says, he believes law enforcement has an implicit bias against minorities, is a great insult to the men and women who serve in law enforcement. and i want everyone to know, who puts on the uniform of law enforcement today, that president trump and i stand with you. it is remarkable that when senator tim scott tried to pass the police reform bill, brought together a group of republicans and democrats, senator harris, you got up and walked out of the room. and then you filibustered, senator tim scott's bill on the senate floor that would've provided new accountability, new resources. but we don't have to choose between supporting law enforcement, proving public safety and supporting her african-american and all of our minorities. under president trump's leadership we will always stand with law enforcement and we will do what -- >> susan: vice president,

thank you. your time is up. >> vice president pence: improve the lives of african-americans. record unemployment, the fight for school choice for all americans -- >> susan: i think you. >> senator harris: i would like to respond. i will not sit here and be lectured by the vice president on what it means to enforce the laws of our country. i'm the only one on this stage who has personally prosecuted everything from child sexual assault to homicide. i'm the only one on this stage who has prosecuted big banks for taking advantage of america's home owners. i'm the only one on the stage who prosecuted proctologist for taking advantage of our veterans. and the reality of this is we are talking about an election in 27 days, where last week, the president of the united states it took a debate stage in front of 70 million americans and refused to condemn white supremacists. >> vice president pence: not true. >> senator harris: and it wasn't like he didn't have a

chance. he didn't do it, and then he doubled down. and then he said, when pressed, stand back, stand by. and this is a part of a pattern of donald trump's. he called mexicans rapists and criminals. he instituted as his first act a muslim man. on the issue of charlottesville, where people were peacefully protesting the r racial justice where a young woman was killed, and on the other side there were neo 19 carrying tiki torches shouting anti-semitic slurs and donald trump, when asked about it, said there wereg people on both sides. this is who we have as a president of the united states and america, you deserve better. joe biden will be a president who brings our country together

and it recognizes the in our diversity and the fact that we all have so much more in common than what separates us. >> susan: vice president, let me give you a minute to respond. >> vice president pence: thank you, susan. i appreciate that very much. i think this is one of the things that makes people dislike of the media so much in this country, susan, is that you selectively edit, just like senator harris did, comments that president trump and i and others on the other side of the iomega. senator harris conveniently admitted, after the president made comments about people on either side of the debate over monuments, he condemned the kkk, neo nazis, white supremacist, and he does so repeatedly. you are concerned that he doesn't condemn neo-nazis, he has jewish grandchildren. a son-in-law who is jewish. this is a president who respects and cherishes all american people.

talk about having personally prosecuted, i'm glad you brought up your record, senator. >> senator harris: thank you. >> vice president pence: i really need to make this point. when you were d.a. in san francisco, when you left office, african-americans were 19 times more likely to be prosecuted for minor drug offenses than whites and hispanics. when you were attorney general of california, you increase to the disproportionate incarceration of blacks in california. >> susan: thank you. >> vice president pence: you did nothing on criminal justice reform in california, you didn't do a finger to pass the first step act on capitol hill. the reality is your record speaks for itself. >> susan: thank you, vice president. to be do we have fought for criminal justice reform, educational choice and opportunities for african-americans. >> susan: thank you, sir. there is no more important issue than the final issue that we are going to talk about tonight, and that is the issue of the election, but -- >> senator harris: he attacked my record, i would like an opportunity to respond. >> susan: let me give you 30

seconds because we are running out of time. >> senator harris: i appreciate that. first of all, having served as the attorney general of the state of california, the work that i did is a model of what our nation needs to do and we will be able to do under a joe biden presidency. our agenda includes what this administration has failed to do. it will be about not only instituting a ban on choke hold and karate holds, not only -- >> susan: thank you, senator. >> susan: these are points that you made earlier in the hour and i would like to talk about the election itself. >> senator harris: but i want to talk about the connection between what joe and i will do and my record, which includes, i was the first statewide officer to institute a requirement that my agents would wear body cameras and keep them on full-time. we were the first to initiate a requirement that there would be at training in law enforcement on implicit bias because joe biden and i recognize that implicit bias does exist,

mr. vice president, contrary to what you may believe. we did the work of instituting reforms that were on investing and reentry. this is the work we have done and the work we will do going forward and again, i will not be lectured by the vice president on our record of what we have done in terms of law enforcement and keeping our communities safe and a commitment to reforming the criminal justice system of america. >> susan: thank you, senator harris. i would like you to respond first to the question on the final topic, the election itself. president trump has several times refused to commit himself to a peaceful transfer of power after the election. if your ticket wins and president trump refuses to accept a peaceful transfer of power, what steps would you and vice president biden then take? what would happen next? you have 2 minutes. >> senator harris: i will tell you, joe and i are particularly

proud of the coalition that we have built around our campaign. we probably have one of the broadest coalitions of folks that you've ever seen in a presidential debate. of course, we have the support of democrats but also independents and republicans. in fact, seven members of president george w. bush's cabinet are supporting our ticket. we have the support of colin powell, cindy mccain, john kasich. over 500 generals, retired generals and former national security experts and advisors are supporting our campaign. and i believe they are doing that because they know that joe biden has a deep, deep seated commitment to fight for our democracy and to fight for the integrity of our democracy, and to bring integrity back to the white house. and so we believe in the american people. we believe in our democracy, and here's what i would like to say to everybody: vote!

please vote, vote early, come up with a plan to vote. go to iwillvote.com. you can also go to joebiden.com. we have the power in the next 27 days to make the decision about what will be the course of our country for the next four years, and it is within our power and if we use our vote and we use our voice, we will win. and we will not let anyone subvert our democracy with what donald trump has been doing, as he did on the debate stage last week, when again in front of 70 million people, he openly attempted to suppress the vote. joe biden on the other hand, on the same debate stage, because clearly donald trump doesn't think he can run on a record, because it is a failed record, joe biden on that stage said hey, just please vote. so i will repeat what joe said. please vote. >> susan: thank you, senator. vice president pence, president trump has several times refused to commit to a

peaceful transfer of power after the election. if vice president joe biden is the winner, will be your role and responsibility as vice president? what will you personally do? you have 2 minutes. >> vice president pence: susan, first and foremost, i think we're going to win this election because while joe biden and kamala harris rattle off a long litany of the establishment in washington, d.c., and establishment that joe biden has been a part of for 47 years, president donald trump has launched a movement of everyday americans from every walk of life. and i have every confidence that the same americans that delivered that historic victory in 2016 can see this president's record where we rebuild our military, we revived our economy through tax cuts and rolling back regulation, fighting for fair trade, unleashing american energy. we pointed conservatives to our federal courts at every level. and we stood with the men and

women of law enforcement every single day. and i think that movement of americans has only grown stronger in the last four years. and when you talk about accepting the outcome of the election, i must tell you. senator, your party has spent the last three and a half years trying to overturn the results of the last election. it's amazing. when joe biden was vice president of the united states, the fbi actually spied on president trump and my campaign. i mean, there were documents released this week that the cia actually made a referral to the fbi documenting that those allegations were coming from the hillary clinton campaign. of course, we've all seen the avalanche of what you put the country through for the better part of three years, until it was found that there was no obstruction, no collision, case closed. then senator harris, you and your colleagues in the congress trying to impeach the president of the united states over a

phone call. and now hillary clinton has actually said to joe biden that in her words, under no circumstances should he concede the election. so let me just say, i think we're going to win this election. president trump are fighting every day in court houses to prevent joe biden and kamala harris from changing the rules in creating this universal mail-in voting that will create a massive opportunity for voter fraud, and we have a free and fair election. we know, we are going to have confidence in it and i believe in all my heart that president trump is going to be reelected for four more years. >> susan: i've written all the questions that i've asked tonight, but for the final question of the debate, i'd like to read a question that someone else wrote. the utah debate commission asked students in the state to write essays about what they would like to ask you. and i want to close tonight's debate with the question posed by bricklin brown, an eighth grader in springville utah and here's what she wrote. "when i watch the news, all i

see is arguing between democrats and republicans. when i watch the news, all i see is citizens fighting against citizens. when i watch the news, all i see are two candidates from opposing parties trying to tear each other down. if our leaders can't get along, how are the citizens supposed to get along? and then she added, your examples could make all the difference to bring us together." to each of you in turn i would like you to take one minute and respond. vice president pence, you have one minute. >> vice president pence: with a wonderful question. let me just commend you for taking an interest in public life. i started following the news when i was very young, and in america, we believe in a free and open exchange of debate. and we celebrate that. it's how we have created literally the freest and most

prosperous nation in the history of the world. i will tell you, don't assume that what you're seeing on your local news networks is synonymous with the american people. i look at the relationship between justice ruth bader ginsburg, the late justice who we just lost on the supreme court, and the late justice antonin scalia. they were on polar opposites of the supreme court of the united states. one very liberal, one very conservative. but what has been learned since her passing is the two of them and their families with a very clos with the very closest of friends. we can debate vigorously, as senator harris and i have tonight, but when the debate is over we come together as americans and that is what people do in big cities and small towns all across this country. so i just want to encourage you, i want to tell you that we are going to work everyday to have government as good as our

people. the american people each and every day love a good debate. we love a good argument, but we always come together and are always there for one another. in times of need, and we have especially learned that through the difficulties of this year. >> susan: senator harris, what would you say to bricklin? >> senator harris: first of all, i love hearing smart young leaders and when i hear your words, i know our future is bright because it is that perspective on who we are and who we should be that is a sign of leadership and is something we should all aspire to be. that brings me to joe. joe biden, one of the reasons that joe decided to run for president is after charlottesville, which we talked about earlier. it so troubled him and upset him, as it did all of us, that there was that kind of hate and division.

what propelled joe to run for president is to see that over the course of the last four years, what bricklin described has been happening. joe has a long-standing reputation of working across the aisle and working in a bipartisan way, and that's what he's going to do as president. joe biden has a history of lifting people up and fighting for their dignity. you have to know jo's story to know that joe has known pain, he has known suffering, and he has known love. so, when you think about the future, i do believe the future is bright. and it will be because of your leadership and it will be because we fight for each person's voice, through their vote, and we get engaged in the selection because you have the ability through your work and through eventually, your vote, to determine the future of our country and what its leadership looks like. >> susan: thank you,

senator harris. thank you vice president pence. thank you so much for being with us tonight. we want to thank also the university of utah for its hospitality and most of all, thanks for all americans who watched this debate tonight. again, her best wishes for a quick recovery to president trump, the first lady, and everyone who is battling covid-19. the second presidential debate is next week, on october 15th. a town hall style debate in miami. we hope you will join us then. good evening. [applause] >> bret: the first and only vice presidential debate of 2020 comes to an end as the spouses of the two candidates come on stage.

vice president pence, senator harris, both making points. but you can see why the democrats, martha, world building up mike pence as a debater this week. it was disciplined, it was sharp. it's the best i've seen him, and he had his marks. senator harris obviously had some key points in the talk about covid-19, and also about fighting for justice. but it seemed many times that vice president pence controlled the conversation in a disciplined kind of way. a much different debate, obviously, than the first presidential debate in tone, intent are, and how it was run and how it was completed. >> martha: i would say that it started out a little bit tentative but it built in a very strong way for the vice president. his job that he was set out to do to hit his markers and to fix some of what wasn't laid down in terms of the trump policy and

the successes that they see of the trump presidency. i think the folks in the trump camper going to feel really good tonight. i think the president is very happy with how his vice president did come in with regard to kamala harris, she was forceful. she made a lot of faces that mike pence as he was making his way through some arguments against her, but she did her best to put her best foot forward in this debate tonight but i think it was a very strong night for mike pence. >> bret: how those smirks and nods and i roles and laughs play is another part of the debate. you don't see that i in the hall unless you are looking at a tv, but it is part of debating on this national stage. >> martha: absolutely. >> bret: and how this plays with the american people is a big question. the other question is does it make a huge difference in this race? i think most people would say that mike pence had a very good night tonight, but does that change the dynamic? let's bring in our all-star panel.

chris wallace, brit hume, dana perino, juan williams, donna brazile, and karl rove. i want to start with you, get your thoughts on this debate. >> i had a couple of thoughts. i agree with what you all, even martha, have been saying, but the strength of mike pence's performance. part of the reason why he was strong was he kept ignoring the moderators appeals to him to limit his time. i remember back in the days when i was involved in some of these debates, i always wanted there to be a bell or something on the stage that would go off on a candidate was over his time because you've got the moderator out of the business of having to be the time police, which i think audiences probably find annoying, although what choice does moderator have? it also occurred to me watching this debate that may be the idea that most moderators have about having a list of questions and everything broken down into segments and so forth doesn't work very well. maybe the better way to do it is to let them have added instantly try to let each side have equal time and let them fight over the issues they want to fight about.

those are a couple random thoughts about a debate that i don't think is going to change the trajectory of this election. but it was certainly more issue-oriented and more informative than the prior one, when the candidates kind of ruined it for everybody. >> martha: chris wallace, there were a few points where, here is kind of dodged some of the questions that were still lingering from the last debates. the question of packing the court. she also did not directly answer what if any restrictions she would place an abortion in california if roe v. wade was overturned. just a couple of the times i think some of those things landed without a finish. your thoughts as you look back at tonight? >> oh, i think they both ducked a lot of questions. while she ducked a question about what the restrictions or lack of restrictions would be in california, mike pence said exactly the same on restrictions in indiana. i thought that her worst refusal to answer was exactly as you say, on the packing of the

court, but i thought that pence had an equally egregious refusal to answer by protecting people with pre-existing conditions and he absolutely refused to even discuss the issue. i thought both of them had a pretty good night. i thought kamala harris' best point was when she was going after president trump and mike pence on health care and the effort to overturn obamacare and the supreme court of the week after the election. she said if you have pre-existing conditions, they're coming after you. if you are one of the 20 million people on obamacare, they're coming after you. if you're one of the people who is 26 or under who is on your family's plan. i thought on the other hand, that pence was most effective when he went at kamala harris on the question of a left-wing agenda that she and biden would raise taxes as soon as they came in and also that they would push

their environmental -- he said radical environmental agenda at the expense of american workers. i thought it was actually a pretty even night. i agree with brit come i don't think it will change the debate much but i will say it was the first debate i've seen where it was above crawling around on one candidate's head for two or 3 minutes and i don't think we can let the up and go without mentioning that. >> bret: it was part of the visuals. another positive moment for vice president pence was when he articulated the takedown of al-baghdadi, and fighting isis, and his dismount was this president does not hesitate to act when he needs to. as the motorcade is leaving the hall here, both motorcades, we should say, leaving kingsbury hall. dana? >> first i will say that utah delivered what people want to come a little more genteel

debate, little more civil. what you would expect when people come to utah. i think donna got her wish. it was a more boring debate. no runs, no hits, no errors, but i agree that mike pence was able to defend president trump's record. i thought that she had a very good portion of the debate when talking about covid-19 and the pandemic. but vice president pence then dominated on the economy. taxes, energy, also talking about china. i didn't think her answer on that was very good and his was very pointed. and then when it came to foreign policy i think it showed that he had so much more experience than she did on that score. >> martha: donna, obviously, during one point when they were talking about trade, talking about the usmca, about the paris climate court, about china, pence went back time and time and time again to sort of pulled her to her record on the umc a.

saying on her ticket they're going to get a green new deal and a paris accord and kill new jobs. how effective you think that was and how well do you think she responded to that line of attack? >> you know, mike pence looked like he was back in the rose garden saying yes, president trump, you've done such a wonderful job! yes, you're doing such a terrific job! i thought she rocked it. she was graceful, she showed strength when she had to show strength. she did not interrupt him but she reminded him that she had the clock and she was able to get out her information. she made sure that the american people understand that the tru trump-pence administration has no plan for people with pre-existing conditions. i believe she did a good job. yes, it was boring but boring in a sense that this was not about fireworks. it was about substance and i think she was able to bring home the substance. you know she did good. >> bret: part of tonight's

challenge for, here is was to introduce yourself to the american public and possibly convince them that she could be commander in chief eventually. part of that is to be likable, was she likable tonight in the cutaways and the reaction and how she handled it and how did it play for you? >> she was trying to, she failed and i'm not certain that was her goal. i think it was to do what her advisor told the press. she has to go and nail pence to the wall and leave a trail of blood behind her. if that was her mission she didn't succeed at it. i am with chris and brit, i don't think this is going to change the direction of the debate but i do believe it gives a template for the trump campaign if it's paying attention. kamala harris did a good job on health care, she did a good job on prosecuting the case on coronavirus, but mike pence did a good job of building a contrast not only on covid but on taxes, packing the supreme court, energy, foreign policy, china.

on each and every one of these he was able to say here's what we are for and here's what that other side is in on each one of those she got bolick stop, some of them embarrassingly so. this is going to be a problem if they are not going to say what they are going to do. they're going to say, what are you hiding? and they will suggest that the worst is behind them. now, i don't think she did a good job of making herself likable and these gals and the funny faces were not that helpfu helpful. don incidentally disagrees with me. she is waving her hand. >> bret: either that or she has a fly in front of her. it's because she's not you >> she's not marrying you. >> martha: i thought one of the most difficult questions for mike pence and i want to know how you thought he handled that was what happened in the rose garden. i think it's a pretty tough question to answer when you've got 34 people at the white house

who have come down with covid after an event like that and of course you can never pin it to any specific moment. but he basically said the president trusts the american people to take care of their own health. that seems like a more difficult moment for him. >> i agree and i think that again, it was evasive. i think the first half-hour of this debate was when you add the biggest audience, most people paying attention, and i think she won, clearly, that part of the debate. because the conversation was about covid and she made a very compelling case about the failure of the trump administration. vice president pence's response was to say the american people have acted and that the trump administration trusts the american people. he made it out to be that she was attacking the american people by calling the trump administration to account for their failures. and i didn't think that was very attractive. i didn't think it was something that i would buy in the supermarket. i would say, what are you -- are you kidding me? so i didn't see that at all. what i also noticed and people

have mentioned this is that susan page, the moderator, had to stop him at one point and say, mr. vice president, your campaign agreed to these rules. you've had most of the time. so to me, that reminded people of what took place last week and again, that's not good news for the trump campaign. i agree, i thought clearly senator harris evaded the question about packing the court but coming back to what you were talking about, martha, what happened there in the rose garden, obviously vice president pence had nothing to say. and i think that when you go along the line here and talk about people shifting topics, saying i'm going to go back and answer another question, i think that clearly that and the humanity, the humanity that she displayed, introducing herself and her family, all very effective. i don't know that it changes much but i thought she had a very good night. >> bret: brit come a lot of people forget that a debate is

different than an interview. and you get to control that 2 minutes of answer and you can go back and answer the previous question and answer or not answer, depending on what you want to do. the people are watching either way. >> that's right, and i think it's glaring when you are so obviously evasive. here is on the question of court packing, which was put to her repeatedly and also pence on the rose garden event, which is hard to defend, i suppose. let's remember a certain number of people watch this debate come a lot of people will see the coverage afterwards and their opinions of who won and lost in the importance of it all will be shaped to consider all extent by what they see and hear replay. we have fox will have our choice sound bites that we will use and we think of the most newsworthy. i can guarantee you other news organizations may have an entirely different take on this and it will be interesting to see how that plays out. it will also be interesting to see what people thought of the

questions that were asked. did kamala harris get questioned as topically as mike pence did? that will all be going forward. >> martha: i think it's a great point. think a lot of people watch some of the beginning of it and wondered when there was going to be a tough question on the harris side. and we did get some of those as it progressed. watching this all along with us and he is an expert at getting an expert of what everybody else thinks is watching this debate play out. good evening to you, thanks for being with us tonight. >> bret: you had a panel. >> yes, we had 15 swing voters, undecided voters from eight different undecided states and they give us three conclusions. and we will show it on your show tomorrow. but the complaint about kamala harris was that she was abrasive and condescending. the complaint about mike pence

was that he was too tired, but vice presidential, or presidential. if this is a battle over style and substance, which is often the case with undecided voters because they simply do not use on policy, they also choose on persona, this was mike pence's night. i want to emphasize it's not that pence did so well, it's that they felt both candidates were not answering the questions as well as they would have liked. they thought that kamala made a greater effort to take down donald trump and the trump-pence administration, where as mike pence did a better job explaining what the pence administration had done. and third is that they were more upset with kamala harris' reactions to pence. of the smiling, the smirking, the scowling. if they were angrier at that than they wear that mike pence went over his time in almost every debate. i forgot to say one thing to brit, voters do not like it when

candidates run long. and when they run along every time they think that's an example of being undisciplined and unfocused. however, they were more agitated with kamala's presentation than they were with mike pence and not to time. >> bret: was there a policy issue, frank, that stood out for them in this debate? obviously, covered a lot of territory over 90 minutes. speak of the issue for them is not really policy. it was what trump had done or not done. but he was responsible are not responsible for the economy. whether he had done what he promised to do on covid or not. this was much more based on the trump administration, and relates a referendum. it's still a referendum on donald trump rather than a choice. and if the trump campaign cannot change that from a referendum to a choice, i'm afraid donald trump is going to have trouble on election day. >> martha: you know, frank, as you are watching your panel

watch this, where there certain things that they seemed more animated about when they started hearing them go back and forth on it? >> yes, they really did not like the ducking of questions. but they were so much happier with this debate than they were the first one. the first want to them was embarrassing. this one at least they had the decorum. but the frustration, and i'm engaging in this chat constantly throughout the 90 minutes. the complaint was there ducking the question, they are pivoting. so they are responding to this strategy of the candidates as opposed to the policies of the candidates. and that is the responsibility of the moderator and it's the responsibility of both candidates to tell the american people what they need to know to make a decision. this is clearly a better debater than the first one, but to our undecided voters, i agree also with brit that i don't think this will change many minds. but -- clear that mike pence was the winner tonight

confrontation. >> bret: quickly, you said you had 15 undecided voters from key battleground states. a lot of people looking at the selection saying are there undecided voters? a lot of them left? >> the answer is they are not deciding on policy, they are deciding who they trust more, or to be more accurate, who they distrust less. these are people, the last remaining undecided, 6% of america in 11 states, which only represents 2.4% of the country. frankly, we can never recruit them without having the internet and zoom because you can't find enough of them in any one place. but they are not making up their minds because policy does not drive them. persona does. who can i trust, who has integrity, who's going to answer the questions, who's going to look me straight in the eye and tell me the truth? and they have issues with both campaigns. i will tell you that based on those criteria that mike pence did a better then, here

kamala harris this evening. >> bret: albright, frank luntz, we will see you tomorrow with that panel. >> martha: we look forward to that. we will have some final thoughts from our panel and damaged dominic then sean hannity coming up. ♪ when i started cobra kai,

the lack of control over my business made me a little intense. but now quickbooks helps me get paid, manage cash flow, and run payroll. and now i'm back on top... with koala kai. save over 30 hours a month with intuit quickbooks.

♪ ♪ ♪

(clapping) ♪ hey, you alright? ♪ find the nonpartisan facts behind the real stories at usafacts.org ♪ our retirement plan with voya gives us confidence... ...so we can spend a bit today, knowing we're prepared for tomorrow. wow, do you think you overdid it maybe? overdid what? well planned, well invested, well protected. voya. be confident to and through retirement. and then there's the best. we like cage free, and which ones just taste fresher and more flavorful? only eggland's best. we prefer organic, and which ones have 6 times more vitamin d and 25% less saturated fat?

only eggland's best. my family deserves the best, and which egg is the best in so many ways? only eggland's best. better taste, better nutrition, better eggs. ♪ >> on day one, joe biden will repeal that tax bill. he'll get rid of it. >> you just heard senator harris tell you, on day one, joe biden is going to raise your taxes. >> welcome back to our special coverage of the first and only vice president the bait at university of utah in salt lake city. i want to go to dana first. a question that if that was interesting which they both

dodged, since her running mate is quite a good deal older than you, have you figured out a succession plan? that was a tricky question. kamala harris basically gave a pretty strong resume of why she would be okay to take over, i guess. but dana, on that or whatever else strikes you as we wrap up this evening. >> i did notice that but i also wanted to mention this, kamala harris did nothing to try to appeal to the left or pander to the left. i think that they feel they don't need to do that. she talked a lot about either soft republicans or the suburban moms they are trying to reach. at one point she said biden will not ban fracking. that's a fact, let's be clear. congressman alexandria kazu cortez of course of the very far left, she tweeted immediately afterwards, fracking is terrible, actually, and i think that you'll see a lot more of that, this truth is tenuous. >> chris wallace. a lot of people don't think it changes the election, but we have another debate, we think, in miami next week. your thoughts on this race now?

>> i think going into tonight, the biden campaign had one concern and it wasn't whether or not kamala harris was going to be sufficiently likable, it was whether or not people would be able, at the end of the night, to envision her being a heartbeat away from the presidency, which she, in terms of her knowledge, her command of the facts, or policy, which she seemed presidential? and i don't think she did anything tonight at all to disqualify herself in that sense, so if they came into the night leading, i think that they left the night, the biden campaign did, with a lead. >> karl, your thoughts? >> vice presidential debates don't generally change the direction of a campaign and they haven't in our lifetime. i suspect it's true of tonight's debate but i do think it was interesting that there were lessons to be learned by the presidential candidates from watching their vice president of candidates, particularly donald trump watching mike pence, who i think did an excellent job.

>> donna. >> i want to make sure there is no fly -- you know, i have that same color hair is mike pence and i just wanted to check it, but let me just say this, likability. it's a trap! when a woman announces she's running for office, we constantly talk about her style, or grace, whether or not she's moving her hands or rolling her eyes. when a man is assertive, he seen a strong and tough, kamala harris, like most women, they just simpler want to be judged on their records. >> brit, final thought here. the term campaign had a tough week. are they in any better shape n now? >> arguably they are, but the question is whether the president, in looking at this, will recognize the fact that his own vice president did a better job of defending is it administration's record then he has, whether he will learn from that and try to adopt some of that for his next debate performance, whether it's next week or sometime further down the road when he's fully healed, so the next big question is what does trump take away from this?

>> panel, thank you. that does it for us, be sure to catch us next thursday october 15th for coverage of the second resident of the bait, we think. until then, i'm back 6:00 p.m. eastern with speech when he seven. >> i will see you at 7:00 p.m. eastern with "the story." sean hannity is coming up next, good night. >> sean: this is a fox news alert, welcome to speech when he six, the one and only vice president of the bait is now in the books. coming up we have a lot of reaction. sarah sanders, ari fleischer, donald trump jr., governor mike huckabee, so many others. first tonight with just 27 days until election day, you were the ultimate jury. something pretty remarkable happened. for the very first time since being tapped by joe biden to service his running mate, kamala harris tonight was forced to answer serious questions about her track record, her past comments, and yes, her frightening socialist agenda. and thanks to the corrupt media mob, which is all in on team biden, senator harris has never been asked to seriously